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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Aug 11, 2010 7:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1987-08-11.sbd.gans.miller.92056.sbeok.flac16

1 Cold Rain and Snow -> 05:58
2 Little Red Rooster 07:58
3 Tons Of Steel 05:08
4 High Time 07:03
5 When I Paint My Masterpiece 04:23
6 When Push Comes To Shove 05:02
7 Let It Grow 12:57
8 Crazy Fingers -> 08:01
9 Samson and Delilah 06:21
10 Ship Of Fools 08:23
11 Playing In The Band -> 08:12
12 China Doll -> 05:22
13 Drums -> 08:26
14 Space -> 07:25
15 All Along The Watchtower -> 04:50
16 Going Down The Road Feeling Bad -> 06:26
17 Around and Around -> 03:45
18 Sugar Magnolia 09:15
19 Black Muddy River 06:32

Biased, but in a different way. This was one of those shows that I left thinking "OK, that was nice, but not remarkable". Would have given it 3 stars at the most after leaving. But on hearing it many years later, I have to admit it is a little better than 3 stars. Some very strong moments sprinkled throughout. Maybe not the best TDIH I've put up, but it's what will be keeping me company for at least a small while.

Brings up an intersting question (one I asked long ago, but now with all the new folks here I am curious to get their input): Have you also seen shows that didn't really hit you that hard, but on later listening really came through and impressed you?

This post was modified by SomeDarkHollow on 2010-08-11 14:52:17

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 11, 2010 9:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

As hard as I worked at "being there" for the music, I had a difficult time making an objective assessment after a show...IE, in spite of all my blather about it being 110% about the music, I had a great time or a piss poor one based primarily on non-music factors, if that makes sense. IE, if BD threw up on me or my shoe, could make or break the experience.

Also, as I often describe here, I really have to listen to something repeatedly to come to a conclusion as to just how amazing Phil's bass line is, or Jerry's lead, or what have you...

Sure, if the venues were smaller, and I could have easily seen the hands of the players, it would have helped. And, I am not saying that some flaming lead of Jerry's didn't impress on a regular basis, or Phil's bass on the OOne didn't come thru loud and clear, but it was often much later that I decided, based on tapes, "whoaaa...9/28/75 was much better than 10/22/78" or some such, whereas before it had only been a vague hunch.

It would also be determined in part by set-list, even if at the time I couldn't have necessarily told you the particular version of the tune I liked was done well or not.

Pathetic, eh?

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Aug 11, 2010 10:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

I believe your question needs no answer.

As for BD and the much discussed shoe-gate, it was a true testament to the show that I was entirely unfazed and left that show completely blown away. Not many shows came close to having that same affect on me. Folks who weren't there may not "get" it from the recordings, but even the most die-hard technically focused folks couldn't have helped but been aware of what was going on that night and left with their mouths agape.

I've been waiting a long time to use "agape". Thank you for the opportunity.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Aug 11, 2010 10:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

Something happend that night (nausea and all) that was way more than the sum of its parts. And everyone got to release it during Gloria (communal ectasy can leave a hell of a memory).

Hell, we had to break a window to get into my car and that does nothing to diminish my fond memories of the show (or that after breaking the glass we recalled where the key happened to be - pre-showing planning was not recalled in post-show glow).

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Aug 11, 2010 10:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

We were staying a friend's sister's apartment about 10 minutes from the arena. One of our group ended up passing out in a car only to be awoken by the local law enforcement for apparently breaking a city ordinence. He had no idea what the phone number was to the apartment (ah, the days before cell phones) and could not call us. If I recall he used his one phone call to notify another friend back at school how much Richmond sucked. I still am unsure how we tracked him down. I'm pretty sure we found it one hell of alot funnier than he did.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 11, 2010 10:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1989-07-02.fob.thomson.motb.81459.sbeok.flac16

I thought the whole show , like the previous spring tour lackluster -> too much crappy Brent . I like Brent just for the record . There is no SBD of this recording , but 11 , count 'em , 11 AUD sources . I don't listen to it often but its not the bumpy , loose cross ties , train ride I remember it as . Good times , though .

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Aug 11, 2010 10:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

Attended that one as well and, like you, left unimpressed to say the least. Might have had something to do with what I recall as some oppressive heat. The tapes show it to be worthy of at least of few re-listens. As I recall, my favorite part of the night was returning to the town green in a friends home town after the show and enjoying the freshly mown grass and stunning night sky before trekking into Harvard Square to mingle with the freaks.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 11, 2010 5:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

I thought '87 was the year with the brutal heat ?
Foxboro '90 , set 2 , gets the most play from me , from that venue . We were probably at many of the same shows SDH .

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Aug 12, 2010 5:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

Did you make it to the Oxford shows? Maybe my favorite large outdoor shows.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Aug 11, 2010 11:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

Agree that other factors can influence your opinion of a show. I was at this show at the Nassua Coliseum:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd79-01-11.gatto.kempka.308.sbeok.shnf

I had a miserable time... the mix was bad, all Keith keys on my side of that barn, what, no Phil or Bob? couldn't hear for shit. (The wife not keen on drums>space, mercifully short that night.) Listened to the show again this past year, not bad at all! Not a Hucker 100, but a lot of fun.

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Aug 11, 2010 8:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

11-1-90 Wembley was like that for me. I felt the show was uneventful and lacked focus and emotion - the horrible U.S. Blues trainwreck did not help matters. Listening to the tapes years later, I can find a few redeeming moments.

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Poster: Miss Divine Date: Aug 11, 2010 10:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

I was there for the 3 nights at Wembley.
Listening back to those tapes makes me think I was at a totally different set of shows.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Aug 11, 2010 10:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

In a good or a bad way? I was at the Hallowe'en show and all I really recall from the actual event is how much I loved the Bird Song. When I was able to revisit, as it were, many years later I found much to enjoy that hadn't registered at the time - and Bird Song was still a joy.

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Poster: Miss Divine Date: Aug 11, 2010 11:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

I enjoyed the live atmosphere, but didn't think they played that well. Listening to the tapes made me think that something may have altered my judgement each night.....;)

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Poster: high flow Date: Aug 11, 2010 10:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

1990-12-04

http://www.archive.org/details/gd90-12-04.sbd.ladner.9365.sbeok.shnf

I remember enjoying 12/3 over 12/4. But in retrospect 12/4 is pretty damn tasty.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Aug 11, 2010 10:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

hey flow. Funny how you and me have had some of the EXACT same experiences! First 12-6-89 then these two shows. I remember 12-3 being incredible magic and everyone in my usual crew thinking 12-4 blew it away. I remember thinking that 12-3 was the REAL deal and 12-4 being just a solid show but nothing special. I only recently found a sbd of 12-3 so have only had a crappy aud to compare. I should really make more of an effort to compare the two. All these years I felt my radar was pretty damn right on but perhaps it was the party favors and the next nights burn out influencing me after all.

another one was 2-21-91 my last Bay Area show. Didn't go with my usual gang, had to sit by myself and had NOTHING to partake. that and not the usual great seats we always scored made me think it wasn't a good show but listening again MUCH better than my bummer mood let me enjoy

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Poster: high flow Date: Aug 11, 2010 1:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

Too funny. As with many topics, I think we have previously discussed this story/experience.

In any case this thread also lead to discover the SBD versions. 12/3 is a Miller remaster.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1990-12-03.sbd.miller.81740.sbeok.flac16

Stander On The Mountain is a Hornsby tune which I have grown to really love. I was a Hornsby fan back then, but I did not know the song. In fact, only recently did I realize that this was played at a show which I attended.

I can see why at 19 I enjoyed 12/3. It's peppy and I was a Terrapin Fan due to my access to my brother's records.

Other than that, I just remember I was working for the Warriors and walked into this one for free (the check is in the mail Bobby) and I had my cousin John along for the ride. He's now a sad case, but we had a grand old time.

4th row stage left risers(for those in the know, the 4th row was about 6 inches deeper than all other rows. The Big Redhead loved that particular feature.) with Jerry and Bruce.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Aug 11, 2010 7:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

and i was directly across from you on the Phil side risers haha. probably a couple of rows higher. usually a little higher than the stage on Phil side is where we always scored seats 9 times out of 10. I just remember the band looking really into it exchanging looks etc

These were the first Bay Area shows after Brent died.I always liked the message of the way it is but at the time I thought here we go - Hornsby. The band will officially slip into the yuppie mainstream that Clapton and Winwood had, you know the people who liked what Bonnie Raitt was doing too ( who btw was very good at that New Years show ). My prejudice was immediately blown away when I saw that Hornsby was for REAL the way he carried himself with such command and confidence and it was obvious the fire it lit under Jerry. You could tell he respected him and knocked it up a few notches. Plus I felt like I got a little taste of what the grand piano had to offer in the prime Dead years ( at least imo 72-74 are the bands musical peak ).

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Poster: buscameby Date: Aug 11, 2010 7:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

SDH, I agree with you I was 2nd row dead center for this show, I actually walked away kind of disappointed as I did from all 3 shows before Telluride.

But after looking back and listening over th epast few years it wasn't so bad. The 2nd set list was actually pretty strong and the melodic feel was sweet. They just seemed ot lack the full dead on energy for me.

I don't recall another show with a Crazy Fingers and China Doll before drums.

While in attendance I also remember some weirdness with the Watch Tower revving up and then really going nowhere.

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Aug 11, 2010 9:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

as is with most watchtowers (GD ones anyway)??? no??

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Poster: buscameby Date: Aug 11, 2010 10:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH: Red Rocks (Personal Bias) - also a small question

Have to agree on the WTs, the best one I saw was 12-10-90 after the DS>Terrapin and that's probably because my mouth was agape-lol.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 11, 2010 1:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A possible difference tween eras?

Hmmm, I guess from reading the comments of others I wasn't completely alone in not feeling confident about objectively rating a show at the time, or changing my mind later based on tapes, etc.

A good example of how the "set list" could impact my perception was the first live StSt I heard in 76 (Jul, Orpheum I think) in that even though it took me a few seconds to recognize it (ie, it was too slow for my tastes), at the time we all left that show convinced we'd been blessed in a huge way and that it had to be one of the top shows of our lives for that moment alone...of course, fast forwarding to the past five yrs, I would rate that show, and in particular, StSt, much lower now.

Now, as to what just occurred to me: going in my day, 74-82, I often heard songs for the first time live (eg, INaMir, PegO, Crfing, BlAllah, TerrSt...at least I think so), and this may not have been true for many of you 80s and 90s attendees? Dunno...but if you'd heard a bunch of tapes prior to going, perhaps 80s and 90s folks were hearing more tunes per show that they were familiar with? This presumes latter day shows were less variable given less material was being written--is this true? My impression only?

My point is that in the 70s, we reveled in hearing older tunes, say Sk&Roses, WotFl, etc., but newer ones often took us by surprise (which could be good or bad)...and at least for my two cents worth, with bands you really know and love, the old familiar tunes grab you right away, and perhaps for that reason are more likely to impact you significantly.

Perhaps you latter era folks got more covers though, so it might be roughly equivalent...

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Aug 11, 2010 6:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A possible difference tween eras?

It's really only now that I compare versions of songs. Back in the day, I'd get excited when I recognized the first hints of a song I really liked, and if there were a lot of those, and if the band felt "on" (in a vague way), I'd feel it was a good show. Very unsophisticated of me, I know ...

I didn't hear a lot of tunes that were new to me, but I also don't recall a ton of covers (in the sense of, say, Beatles or Dylan covers). Saw most of my shows 1978-85, so what would you call that? Middle era? I think they did more covers of well-known songs later on.

It must have been very different to hear lots of songs you'd never heard before. I think I heard Ashes Ashes for the first time at a show, but mostly, songs would be familiar from albums and tapes, and part of the fun was the whole game of guess-the-song -- so familiarity was part of it, for me, at least. Not an "oldies" type of familiarity, because nothing really felt all that old back then, but knowing and loving the songs.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 11, 2010 8:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A possible difference tween eras?

Well, AR, it sounds like your experience supports my thesis...not that I was trying to explain why I had fewer "whoa, this show blew me away!" experiences as some of the 80s folks did, but it did seem some shows were full of new material, and like you, it's not often that grabs you right away. Only natural, I think.